Search results matching tag 'Eibach'

Re: Spring Rates 101 - Eibach 0700.225.1000

AlanH — Sat, 22 Nov 2008 05:00:00 GMT

[quote user="NorCalWarrior"]

warning shameless thread hijack......

Yes I agree standing on the spring is in no way simulating the mechanics of the suspension linkage

That being said, when you adjust the preload on the spring by turning the adjusting nut your are completely bypassing any mechanical interaction with the suspension of the bike turning the nut is working solely against the force of the spring - by using this formula ((N x 3240)/3.24) where equals the amount of compression in inches gained by turning the nut to adjust the spring you get the force required to compress right? So to turn the nut enough to compress the spring 1/32" (0.03125 x 3240)/3.24 you get 31.25lbs of force yes? If that holds true then it shouldn't be as hard to turn that adjusting nut as it has been in my experience

[/quote]My explanation and opinion follows:

When adjusting the spanner nut to compress the spring you are at the same time trying to UNWIND the spring which is mfg'd CW

A CCW spring would adjust easier or LH thd's

The spring is flat ground and only makes partial contact to the spanner nut
The spring is already under preload before mounting to the bike
The weight of the bike still has an effect on the spring

When i did my stretched links and Eibach spring back in '05' i carefully applied white lithium grease on the spring adj nut and thd's which made it quite easy to adjust in early '07' when i went to the 240 tire.

Re: Spring Rates 101 - Eibach 0700.225.1000

AlanH — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:00:00 GMT

[quote user="NorCalWarrior"] .......................................

Edit: Hmm just read Alans info again, and think I may have botched that....

If the spring force is constant at 1000lbs per inch and there are 3.24 inches of travel then it would take 3240lbs to fully compress the spring. Since it's constant (and therefore linear) it would take much less that 1000lbs of force to turn the preload nut especially since each turn is only gives you 0.06" of adjustment on the spring (per the owners manual) so based on that one full turn would compress the spring the equivalent of loading it with 60lbs? That still doesn't seem right because I stood on my spring and it didn't even budge. Alan????

[/quote]OK..... stated earlier above to AW

It's not about the capacity of the spring at all, it's all about the additional weight req'd to start to collapse the spring of the Warrior suspension when the spring is adjusted to whatever

Don't loose sight of the fact that the spring is connected through various linkages that form a complex equation in mechanics and that's why it's not that large a spring. When you jump on your bike you're nut stepping on the spring ... The mechanical advantage is all tailored to the spring. A little goes a long way.

Example: 3/16" stretched links = -1.00 Lower @ the rear wheel

If i inadvertently made a statement in this discussion that there is a direct relationship to riders weight and spring rate, then it's a keying error so pls point it out.

There's a spring force calculator at the bottom of this post in 1/32" increments: http://rswarrior.com/forums/p/123022/984566.aspx#984566

Re: Spring Rates 101 - Eibach 0700.225.1000

AlanH — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:00:00 GMT

[quote user="Ruckus"]OK, I loosened the shock to 15 clicks, tried to tighten the spring nut. Loosened the lock nut, grunted, groaned, nothing. Put the bike on the lift, nothing. Lowered it again, had my 330 lb son sit on it, nothing. Nut didn't budge! I think I pulled my g-string though! LOL. Any help on preloading this thing? Thanks. George[/quote]The dampening adjustment is not for preloading and should beset to the factory mid point. You'll use that adjustment to fine tune the suspension.

The small toothed silver adj nut is for metering only! This will not loosen the jamb nut

The large silver colored jamb (lock) nut with spanner notches must be loosened with the tool provided in the Yami kit under seat.

The adj nut is gold colored and hidden by my DIY spring compression tool as can be seen in both expanded images

CLICK for Expanded Images

Good Luck

Spring Rates 101 - Eibach 0700.225.1000

AlanH — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:00:00 GMT

[quote user="Arizona Warrior"]

What am I missing

My BOLD bulleted responses follows to your EDITED post

Its also true therefore that when the spring is collapsed 1" its resistance to collapsing further is greater than when its fully extended, and this is what you are referring to. This is what the preload feature does.

Yes

If you compress the spring 3/32" and that's equal to the first 100# load, that's good. But the next 900# is still going to compress the spring to 1" and that translates to X" movement of the fender down toward the tire.

NO .... remember the spring is preloaded AND COMPRESSED to a Mechanical Force of 100#.

900# -100# = Effective mechanical Force of 800# and will compress the spring approx 0.800"

800# / 31.25 (31.25# per 1/32") = 25.6 x .03125 = 0.800"

It's going to take 1000# Force to compress the spring 1.00" - 0.093" (preload) = 0.907" spring Travel

[/quote]

Spring Rates 101 - Eibach 0700.225.1000

AlanH — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:00:00 GMT

[quote user="Arizona Warrior"]

What am I missing

My BOLD bulleted responses follow

Yes I agree the spring is going to fully collapse at its rated capacity of 1,000# per linear inch. I don't understand that to mean the capacity of the spring can be increased by preloading.

It's not about the capacity of the spring at all, it's all about the additional weight req'd to start to collapse the spring of the Warrior suspension when the spring is adjusted to whatever

What I mean is, we can't make the spring handle more than (3238#). When the spring feels that force, it will be fully collapsed.

Yes, but the spring travel varies by the initial preload (PL) because the coils will touch depending on PL. The PL is a parameter and the rate is linear

Said another way just to be sure, I know you are not saying that if we stood a 1,000 pound capacity Eibach spring on the concrete and put aprox 100# block of steel on it to simulate prox 3/32" preloading, that doesn't enable the spring to handle yet another 3238# to reach full compression.

Yes, but the coils of the spring will touch @ 3.24" - 0.093" (3/32") on the above senario or @ 3.147" & 3238#

What you are saying, rightly, is that with the 3/32" preload it'll take more than 100# pressure at the spring to cause the spring to collapse further.

Yes

What I can't get past in this specific circumstance is that this bike is bottoming out because the combination of the non-adjustable method of lowering and the particular tire, and possibly other unknown factors, do not leave enough clearance distance to ride 2-up. The odds are the spring is not fully collapsed when the fender hits the tire, but even that doesn't matter for this example. If the spring is collapsing the distance required for the fender hit the tire, then the spring is already providing what ever resistance it would be providing at that travel distance - with or without preload.

Possibly Pilot error in not adjusting the new 1000# Eibach Spring properly or not adjusting it at all as the author (Ruckus) is asking how to adjust
Excessive gross weight no desrespect intended.

In an earlier response the writer (AlanH) has suggested using another method of lowering. I've already expressed my personal opinion of the FNG and my disclaimer about not supporting it.

Anyway this is why solving this with preload doesn't add up in this particular case. So . . . what am I missing

What i have tried to display and answer above is based on facts and my real world knowledge of working with springs.

Hook's Law is all about springs just like Ohm's Law is about electricity < edited

Isn't the best and possibly only solution to raise the fender enough to provide adequate distance so there is enough spring compression distance available to advantage the higher resistances needed when riding 2-up?

If the Pilot hasn't adjusted the Eibach spring this whole discussion is a mute point from where i'm sitting
Secondly, the writer has requested confirmation of the method of lowering and still unanswered

[/quote]

Have we all lost sight of the original question shown below by Ruckus

[quote user="Ruckus"]

Before I succumb to an adjustable lowering kit (I like it where it is) I know I can preload the spring and adjust the dampening of the shock. I'm willing to have a stiffer ride. I read the forums and the owners manual. I just want to know the steps to maybe stiffening the ride for 2 up, then back to cushy solo. Thanks. And let the links to past forums begin![/quote]

Now a question for all the naysayers in the group

Why does nearly every motorcycle in the world have some type or form of adjustable spring compression on either the frt/rear or both

Re: Spring Rates 101 - Eibach 0700.225.1000

AlanH — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:00:00 GMT

[quote user="Ruckus"]OK, last stupid question. Is it easier to make these adjustments while the bikes on the lift with the rear tire off the ground? Thanks guys.[/quote]George ..... you should have read the info provided in the earlier url .... the first bullet point shown below .. It's a simple task IMO

[quote user="AlanH"]

Here are some solutions and my comments based on personal real world experience with these components:

Spring rates 101 .. Spring rates are constant based on the free length & design (Excluding Progressive). When you crank down on the adjust screw you change the effective force req'd to collapse the spring by preloading it which will have an affect on the developed kinetic energy when you hit a bump. You will most likely need to adjust the dampening to prevent what has been labeled on the site as the POGO effect

I would suggest you adjust the stock spring on the side stand using the tool kit spanner wrench and extension handle. It's a cake walk and not difficult at all IMO ... adjust from the right side.
An Eibach 1000# will do the trick. I personally think that the progressive spring is overpriced and there isn't much benefit because the Warrior rear suspension doesn't have that much travel and with the PCS it's even less. That's just my .02 and some facts
- My real world experience with your application is Bruce aka Riverat with an '02' less dampening, of course, but PCS links-240Phat tire and lots of 2-up riding with his his GF. After R&R'ing the referenced spring no more bottoming out at all.
- Bruce also did the Fender chop to the OEM part so the wire issue doesn't exist with his ride
I believe the Baron IFEK sits at a tighter angle to the rear tire where as the Yamaha is flared out more or flatter. You might check my gallery photos or others. It's important that you zip tie the wires accordingly and be sure that the fender harness is routed through the spring clips
You blew the 10A Signal Fuse which is common to this interference and there should be a spare in the fuse box
- Check this link for location: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2207/2244491563_5240b0ef10_o.jpg

IMO, the Warrior rear suspension in stock trim was designed to bottom out on the urethane bumper located on the mono shock designed around the stock size tire. When new parameters are introduced by us guys new challenges arise. So, on any given day if the circumstances are working against you the bike will bottom out .. ask me how i know

Good luck[/quote]

Spring Rates 101 - Eibach 0700.225.1000

AlanH — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:00:00 GMT

[quote user="Arizona Warrior"]

At risk of preaching to the choir, I know you already know this stuff but for example, the preload feature doesn't give the rear spring more capacity, it simply squeezes the spring a bit to take up slack. In the end, the same force is required in both cases to collapse the spring to the point the fender bottoms-out, assuming no bump-stop in between. In these cases the fender needs more clearance, or the spring needs to have greater capacity, or a physical stop has to stop the fender before it bottoms out (hard to do on this type suspension). There is something different between your bike and his. Ruckus has torn up wires twice I think, once with a 1,000# Eibach. The fender may just be too low.

[quote user="Washingtonwarrior"]

I may be wrong but I thought your question was "how do I stiffen the springs". If you read the manual, it's pretty simple, there's a preload nut you just turn, one way stiffens it and the other loosens it. I used to bottom out on vacation fully loaded with two up if I hit the right bump or dip. I stiffened the springs to the max and it won't do that anymore. I like it better that way anyway so I never change it. I don't need any pogo sticking when I'm riding.

[/quote][/quote] ... Dennis you are absolutely correct.... Here are some earlier biased threads on the subject

Tach, speedo, tailight and indicators all die: http://rswarrior.com/forums/p/122567/981175.aspx#981175

rear spring preload http://rswarrior.com/forums/p/26965/388408.aspx#388408

rear spring preload http://rswarrior.com/forums/p/26965/388401.aspx#388401

The Eibach 1000# spring rate is 1000 lbs/in (linear force) and maximum travel of 3.24" providing a maximum mechanical force of 3238 lbs when fully compressed.

1000 lbs / 1/32" = 31.25 lbs Force @ 1/32" compression

Therefore if adjusted 3/32" there is an approx 100 lbs additional Force available as compared to a non adjusted spring

Conclusion: Yamaha provided the adjust screw on the mono-shock to increase the spring load (Force) to off-set variable weights, etc. Use the adj screw accordingly that's why it's there

Eibach Tech Info Here, in Adobe format, if you CLICK on LH Photo ... CLICK on RH Photo for Excel Spring Force Calc

Rubber bump stop - Rear suspension question

AlanH — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 05:00:00 GMT

Taken from this post and prior discussion: http://rswarrior.com/forums/p/115944/940704.aspx#940704

When the bike is lowered retaining the factory shock, the travel of the shock remains the same and the clearance between the tire and inner fender diminish accordingly making the urethane bump stop useless unless a properly designed spacer or thicker bumper is installed on the shock. I don't think this has been done yet so you can be the Pioneer

[quote user="AlanH"] Thu, Jul 31 2008 7:00 PM

[quote user="DarkSide"]

Hey all, my brother mentioned something called a bump stop to prevent bottoming out on those big potholes. I need this to save my rear lights. Does anyone have this on their bike? Is there such a thing? Thanks.[/quote]To directly answer your question, Yes ......My .02 on this subject is: that's the purpose of the Urethane Donut on the mono shock (Bump Stop) so you don't bend the rear axle or swing arm pivot bolt/sleeve when you bottom out

You're more abt to bend an axle when the wheel bottoms out on the underside of the fender and that's a fact

I would suggest you readjust your suspension to stock height or what ever is req'd to prevent collison and or stiffen up on the spring!

[/quote]

Re: Rear suspension question

AlanH — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:00:00 GMT

George ... my 1st Knee Jerk reaction to your question is TAR (tricky air ride) which is the best of both worlds but big bucks.

In an earlier response of mine, i questioned your FNG (flip& grind) being performed by a Yamaha dealer

Was the Warrior relay arm actually modified or did your dealer purchase a Baron relay arm & supplied new brg's?

The purpose of my question is that based on my understanding of the rear suspension, the FNG and or new relay arm has the most detrimental effect to the mechanics of the rear suspension because of the new positions of the fulcrum points. I am not interested in defending this statement, it's my opinion and i'm sure others won't agree

In desending order, adjustable links (properly set-up), stretched links or lastly PCS links have less influence on the mechanics.

Here's a recent post you might have read "" so on any given day... "" : http://rswarrior.com/forums/p/122567/981175.aspx#981175

NOTE: If you should decide that FNG isn't your cup of tea, you'll want to flip the arm or replace with the factory part if you have the Baron part before going to another method

I must admit that my ride is some what harsh with the stretched links (Lowered 1.00") and the 1000# Eibach cranked down to prevent the 240 Metzler tire from bottoming out on the inner fender. With the Warrior forward pegs and my set-back bars it's difficult, at my age, to lift your butt off the seat in anticipation of the visible bumps. My next rear tire change i'm going back to my stock links and i'll relax the spring too!

Re: Tach, speedo, tailight and indicators all died

AlanH — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 05:00:00 GMT

Here are some solutions and my comments based on personal real world experience with these components:

I would suggest you adjust the stock spring on the side stand using the tool kit spanner wrench and extension handle. It's a cake walk and not difficult at all IMO ... adjust from the right side.
An Eibach 1000# will do the trick. I personally think that the progressive spring is overpriced and there isn't much benefit because the Warrior rear suspension doesn't have that much travel and with the PCS it's even less. That's just my .02 and some facts

My real world experience with your application is Bruce aka Riverat with an '02' less dampening, of course, but PCS links-240Phat tire and lots of 2-up riding with his his GF. After R&R'ing the referenced spring no more bottoming out at all.
Bruce also did the Fender chop to the OEM part so the wire issue doesn't exist with his ride

I believe the Baron IFEK sits at a tighter angle to the rear tire where as the Yamaha is flared out more or flatter. You might check my gallery photos or others. It's important that you zip tie the wires accordingly and be sure that the fender harness is routed through the spring clips
You blew the 10A Signal Fuse which is common to this interference and there should be a spare in the fuse box

Check this link for location: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2207/2244491563_5240b0ef10_o.jpg

Good luck

[quote user="NorCalWarrior"]

I know the PCS links are not adjustable, but PCS also carries a progressive rate rear spring (something like 850lbs to 1250lbs) Seems like it maybe an alternative to the Eibach and Barons Springs.

Adjusting the rebound wont help with bottoming it out - it will only make the return from bottom more pleasant , but compression will in effect provide a stiffer ride by shortening the stroke? Although not sure this will help with bottoming out since the spring rate remains the same, so If I go over a bump that will cause me to bottom out having the compression adjusted will just make the bump feel harsher or softer but will still result in a bottom out?

By the way I've been searching trying to find your popular mods thread and when I saw your post I realized you had a link to it in your sig line - I will have to remember that!

[/quote]