The Yamaha Road Star Warrior Forum

OkanoganRider:

Damon says, "Some day, if the species survives long enough, we'll have a near-comprehensive understanding of cosmology too, and the people looking for gods and magic will be left exactly where they are now: holding an empty sack."

I admire Damon's determination but "holding an empty sack" is exactly what is held in principle.  For example to "know" the universe there must be a computer at least the size of the universe or larger.  In the quantum world everything is measured in probabilities and the locations of things are probability locations only.  No definite specific locations only likely locations in principle.  It's a game of chance.  We can't know any more.  We can know one aspect of a particle at the expense of knowing nothing about another aspect. 

We can know nothing about what happened before the universe began because all physical law disappears in principle.  Before the beginning is a void of zero information and that allows anyone to speculate the goings on.  That is just a fact of logic and principle and says nothing about looking for a god or gods but anyone can speculate and no one can find authority to challenge other views.  Was there a god before the beginning?  A person would have no foundation to challenge that this was not true. 

I purposely used the term "magic" because magic is defined as "any mysterious or extraordinary quality or power", "unaccountably enchanting", "wonderful; marvellous; exciting", and "to cause to disappear by or as if by magic".  The quantum world is definitely "unaccountably enchanting" and the particles "cause to disppear by or as if by magic".

I respect everyone's beliefs since the world, the universe, whatever, seems to allow and invite many interpretations.   

.....with one exception, there is no such thing as "magic". It is a word used when one can no longer explain fact or logic which can be, and usually are, quite different in most cases. Now, explain real "Faith" and real "Miracles". BTW, I know the answer!

I often wondered that if energy can not be created or destroyed, what happens to the energy which was life when we die?

Ruckus:

This life isn't it, it's not over when I die

 

(a very loud "AHEM") Dude, it was only a couple of days ago you did that very thing to me and defended doing it. How's that shoe feeling in the other foot? 

Damon:

Basically, you're telling me that I meant it because you say I did.  Another fairly weak argument.

 

I am replying to 07midnight.  My computer doesn't seem to reply directly to a particular posting most of the time.  I guess you are talking symantics or meanings of  "magic".  One is able to use it in various ways that may differ from others.  In the sense I used, it does mean exactly what I think you said it meant.  That is, when there is no natural explanation for an event and it may be established by reasoned logical deduction or mathematics that there is no natural or physical explanation attainable then it can be seen as "magical" (In other words, an uncaused event).  That is exactly what the big bang is, a form of magic.  One could call it lots of things.  I suppose one could even say that all four of our natural forces (we have only found four forces in nature) are magic because there is no reason for them to exist.  Even if they come out of a unified force with some form of explanation there is no reason for the unified force to exist in the first place and can never be known in principle because those "causes" would be before the beginning.  If I popped a milkshake out of thin air, you might say that was magical.  If I popped a big bang out of thin air, you would say what?  It depends on the individual person what to make of these fundemental questions.

I don't know much about faith and miracles and there are many differing ideas about them.  I would like to hear your answer though.

Washingtonwarrior:

I often wondered that if energy can not be created or destroyed, what happens to the energy which was life when we die?

 

It isn't destroyed.  It's transferred to worms who transfer it to birds who transfer it back to humans.  It's called ecology.

OkanoganRider:

That is, when there is no natural explanation for an event and it may be established by reasoned logical deduction or mathematics that there is no natural or physical explanation attainable then it can be seen as "magical" (In other words, an uncaused event).  That is exactly what the big bang is, a form of magic. 

 

It may be magic to you, but there are smart people who study such things are working to derive a lab model:

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE5AJ3TQ20091121

The idea behind science is to take things that we don't understand and methodically try to understand them.  Trying to equate a serious, in process science experiment with whether or not God made everyone speak differently because he didn't want us building a tower that would extend to heaven is rather silly. 

OkanoganRider:

In the quantum world everything is measured in probabilities and the locations of things are probability locations only.  No definite specific locations only likely locations in principle.  It's a game of chance.

 

Yes, but if the scientist's stochastic models are correct, the odds of understanding are with the house. Engineers have been using such useful estimation devices for decades now. Here's an example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter

Washingtonwarrior:

I often wondered that if energy can not be created or destroyed, what happens to the energy which was life when we die?

Ruckus:

This life isn't it, it's not over when I die

 

Good question. There's no mention on energy in the Bible though. Modern science discoverd energy. Without getting too into my opinion, I should have just kept my mouth shut, read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" for starters. Then question "What about the Caveman and Dinosaurs?". It's not a matter of IF, but WHEN a Comet will strike the earth. Explain why God placed Comets in our Galaxy! Moses and a few chosen ones lived to be over 500 years old according to the Bible. Why no 500 year old chosen ones now? When the Bible was written, Jesus ASCENDED (went up) into heavan. They had no idea back then we'd be flying, nevermind going into space. They asumed that heaven was "in the clouds". Guess what? We punch through "the clouds" serveral times a year. No heaven there! I'm not saying all religious folks are bad, just grasping for something that I don't believe is there. If there WAS an all forgiving God, then you must agree, I'm safe if he exsists....lol.

LOL, OK, I think I may have you pegged now. You really do know everything and in such huge capacity, wealth and depth. In your mind it appears, that there could there ever be a God for no other reason than because you are god.  I got it!  If that's not it, I'm sure you'll be able to explain it so that even a mere mortal such as my self could understand it.

My belief or lack thereof, of anything beyond humanity as the end all and be all of the entire universe is mostly based upon my personal belief in the odds. From my mere mortal perception, there appears to be others that either believe or deny (mostly deny) based upon their incredibly large egos and almost godlike opinions of their own mental capacity and capability.You MF, seem to fit that description.

saddlebagus:

Washingtonwarrior:

I often wondered that if energy can not be created or destroyed, what happens to the energy which was life when we die?

 

It isn't destroyed.  It's transferred to worms who transfer it to birds who transfer it back to humans.  It's called ecology.

 

I'm pretty sure that you answered a question I didn't ask. Nope, I'm sure you didn't answer a question I didn't ask. 

For the record, the only reason I'd even like for there to be a God is that I'd like there to be a universal justice. I'm pretty sure without wasting a bunch of my life verifying it, that universal justice is the backbone of a lot if not all religions. I've met a lot of very well meaning Christians that I don't want to spend ten minutes with now let alone eternity. The percentage of atheists that I feel the same way about is much higher. The people that don't really give a rats a$$ either way, I get along with pretty regularly. Or maybe they do care, they just waste much of my life telling me about it.

Ruckus:

Washingtonwarrior:

I often wondered that if energy can not be created or destroyed, what happens to the energy which was life when we die?

Ruckus:

This life isn't it, it's not over when I die

 

Good question. There's no mention on energy in the Bible though. Modern science discoverd energy. Without getting too into my opinion, I should have just kept my mouth shut, read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" for starters. Then question "What about the Caveman and Dinosaurs?". It's not a matter of IF, but WHEN a Comet will strike the earth. Explain why God placed Comets in our Galaxy! Moses and a few chosen ones lived to be over 500 years old according to the Bible. Why no 500 year old chosen ones now? When the Bible was written, Jesus ASCENDED (went up) into heavan. They had no idea back then we'd be flying, nevermind going into space. They asumed that heaven was "in the clouds". Guess what? We punch through "the clouds" serveral times a year. No heaven there! I'm not saying all religious folks are bad, just grasping for something that I don't believe is there. If there WAS an all forgiving God, then you must agree, I'm safe if he exsists....lol.

 

Washingtonwarrior:

I'm pretty sure that you answered a question I didn't ask. Nope, I'm sure you didn't answer a question I didn't ask. 

For the record, the only reason I'd even like for there to be a God is that I'd like there to be a universal justice. I'm pretty sure without wasting a bunch of my life verifying it, that universal justice is the backbone of a lot if not all religions. I've met a lot of very well meaning Christians that I don't want to spend ten minutes with now let alone eternity. The percentage of atheists that I feel the same way about is much higher. The people that don't really give a rats a$$ either way, I get along with pretty regularly. Or maybe they do care, they just waste much of my life telling me about it.

Ruckus:

Washingtonwarrior:

I often wondered that if energy can not be created or destroyed, what happens to the energy which was life when we die?

Ruckus:

This life isn't it, it's not over when I die

 

Good question. There's no mention on energy in the Bible though. Modern science discoverd energy. Without getting too into my opinion, I should have just kept my mouth shut, read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" for starters. Then question "What about the Caveman and Dinosaurs?". It's not a matter of IF, but WHEN a Comet will strike the earth. Explain why God placed Comets in our Galaxy! Moses and a few chosen ones lived to be over 500 years old according to the Bible. Why no 500 year old chosen ones now? When the Bible was written, Jesus ASCENDED (went up) into heavan. They had no idea back then we'd be flying, nevermind going into space. They asumed that heaven was "in the clouds". Guess what? We punch through "the clouds" serveral times a year. No heaven there! I'm not saying all religious folks are bad, just grasping for something that I don't believe is there. If there WAS an all forgiving God, then you must agree, I'm safe if he exsists....lol.

 

Well said. Agreed. Like I said, I shoulda just kept my opion to myself. I'm not trying to piss anyone off. Sorry if I did! Back to my corner!

I can't speak for anybody else but you didn't piss me off.

Ruckus:

Washingtonwarrior:

I'm pretty sure that you answered a question I didn't ask. Nope, I'm sure you didn't answer a question I didn't ask. 

For the record, the only reason I'd even like for there to be a God is that I'd like there to be a universal justice. I'm pretty sure without wasting a bunch of my life verifying it, that universal justice is the backbone of a lot if not all religions. I've met a lot of very well meaning Christians that I don't want to spend ten minutes with now let alone eternity. The percentage of atheists that I feel the same way about is much higher. The people that don't really give a rats a$$ either way, I get along with pretty regularly. Or maybe they do care, they just waste much of my life telling me about it.

Ruckus:

Washingtonwarrior:

I often wondered that if energy can not be created or destroyed, what happens to the energy which was life when we die?

Ruckus:

This life isn't it, it's not over when I die

 

Good question. There's no mention on energy in the Bible though. Modern science discoverd energy. Without getting too into my opinion, I should have just kept my mouth shut, read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" for starters. Then question "What about the Caveman and Dinosaurs?". It's not a matter of IF, but WHEN a Comet will strike the earth. Explain why God placed Comets in our Galaxy! Moses and a few chosen ones lived to be over 500 years old according to the Bible. Why no 500 year old chosen ones now? When the Bible was written, Jesus ASCENDED (went up) into heavan. They had no idea back then we'd be flying, nevermind going into space. They asumed that heaven was "in the clouds". Guess what? We punch through "the clouds" serveral times a year. No heaven there! I'm not saying all religious folks are bad, just grasping for something that I don't believe is there. If there WAS an all forgiving God, then you must agree, I'm safe if he exsists....lol.

 

Well said. Agreed. Like I said, I shoulda just kept my opion to myself. I'm not trying to piss anyone off. Sorry if I did! Back to my corner!

 

Saddlebagus says,

"It may be magic to you, but there are smart people who study such things are working to derive a lab model:  http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE5AJ3TQ20091121"

The large hadron collider is very interesting and will provide some further questions and knowledge.  If you are saying that there are NO limitations to our knowledge, you are incorrect.  There are limitations in principle. 

Saddlebagus says,

"Yes, but if the scientist's stochastic models are correct, the odds of understanding are with the house. Engineers have been using such useful estimation devices for decades now. Here's an example:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter "

The "odds" are with the house for sure since we can find probabilities of a location or event but that doesn't erase the fact that the knowledge is by principle stochastic and non-linear.  The knowledge is limited.

OkanoganRider:

Saddlebagus says,

"It may be magic to you, but there are smart people who study such things are working to derive a lab model:  http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE5AJ3TQ20091121"

The large hadron collider is very interesting and will provide some further questions and knowledge.  If you are saying that there are NO limitations to our knowledge, you are incorrect.  There are limitations in principle. 

I find your argument that, because we don't understand everything in the universe, magic is possible quite interesting. It is of course always impossible to prove anything doesn't exist. I challenge you to prove to me that invisible unicorns do not exist. That's not what science does. The fact that everything in the universe has not been explained is not a reason to accept organised religion as believable. Calling the big bang theory magic is wacky. It is a THEORY based on sound scientific reasoning. The fact that you don't understand it doesn't make it magic.