The Yamaha Road Star Warrior Forum

Arizona Warrior:

What am I missing  

I agree what you posted is accurate.  Although the rating could actually be metric, calling Eibach USA you'll be told that Eibach springs are rated at 1" compression per (rated load) so in this case lets say 1,000 will compress the spring 1" and each additional (1,000+linear increase) of force will compress at the linear rate of one additional inch.  I recognize this doesn't mean the spring feels only the rider's weight due to the leverages and impacts involved, but the spring "feels what it feels" and collapses/rebounds accordingly.

The Eibach technical information provided is off the North American site and is clearly in English units and not metric as you elude. If you Clicked on the provided info you would have brought up this document in pdf format: http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/1/1/1673654/My%20Documents/Eibach_Warrior_Spring.pdf

• 7.00" Free Length, 2.25" Inside Diameter, 1000# Rate expressed per inch, etc, etc

Yes.  Here's something interesting.  Eibach springs were engineered in Germany http://www.eibach.de/index.php and awhile back one of the guys in the USA happened to mention all the springs worldwide are the same build (the original enginnering is metric).  He said they market them here (and etc) labeled in pounds and inches, and yes the literature is converted to ease the sales path, as is common.  The European literature for American cars on the German website is also converted.  

At the time I think his intent was to imply some additional hidden capacity exists due to converting the numbers from metric (its really more than 1,000#!!) although if it is - its surely negligible.  But still, being me, I later measured the coil diamater.  While I don't recall what it was, I do recall it wasn't an expected "even" number in MM's or inches.  I think it was something like .544" but don't quote me its been a long time.

So I was actually alluding to that, and agreeing it doesn't matter if its true considering the goal.

Arizona Warrior:

Yes.  Here's something interesting.  Eibach springs were engineered in Germany http://www.eibach.de/index.php and awhile back one of the guys in the USA happened to mention all the springs worldwide are the same build (the original enginnering is metric).  He said they market them here (and etc) labeled in pounds and inches, and yes the literature is converted to ease the sales path, as is common.  The European literature for American cars on the German website is also converted.  

At the time I think his intent was to imply some additional hidden capacity exists due to converting the numbers from metric (its really more than 1,000#!!) although if it is - its surely negligible.  But still, being me, I later measured the coil diamater.  While I don't recall what it was, I do recall it wasn't an expected "even" number in MM's or inches.  I think it was something like .544" but don't quote me its been a long time.

So I was actually alluding to that, and agreeing it doesn't matter if its true considering the goal.

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Other than to muddy the waters, i don't see the purpose of this response. The Warrior is built to metric std's too so i would expect that a spring either mfg'd in Germany or built on German equip in the USA to be metric and their converted dim's to be close enough ....

I find this response to be off the wall and nothing more then conjectures and innuendos which aren't helpful IMO .... just my .02

 

Arizona Warrior:

What am I missing  

• My BOLD bulleted responses follow

Yes I agree the spring is going to fully collapse at its rated capacity of 1,000# per linear inch.   I don't understand that to mean the capacity of the spring can be increased by preloading. 

• It's not about the capacity of the spring at all, it's all about the additional weight req'd to start to collapse the spring of the Warrior suspension when the spring is adjusted to whatever

 What I mean is, we can't  make the spring handle more than (3238#).  When the spring feels that force, it will be fully collapsed.

• Yes, but the spring travel varies by the initial preload (PL) because the coils will touch depending on PL. The PL is a parameter and the rate is linear

Said another way just to be sure, I know you are not saying that if we stood a 1,000 pound capacity Eibach spring on the concrete and put aprox 100# block of steel on it to simulate prox 3/32" preloading, that doesn't enable the spring to handle yet another 3238# to reach full compression.

• Yes, but the coils of the spring will touch @ 3.24" - 0.093" (3/32") on the above senario or @ 3.147" & 3238#

What you are saying, rightly, is that with the 3/32" preload it'll take more than 100# pressure at the spring to cause the spring to collapse further.

• Yes

What I can't get past in this specific circumstance is that this bike is bottoming out because the combination of the non-adjustable method of lowering and the particular tire, and possibly other unknown factors, do not leave enough clearance distance to ride 2-up.  The odds are the spring is not fully collapsed when the fender hits the tire, but even that doesn't matter for this example.  If the spring is collapsing the distance required for the fender hit the tire, then the spring is already providing what ever resistance it would be providing at that travel distance - with or without preload.

• Possibly Pilot error in not adjusting the new 1000# Eibach Spring properly or not adjusting it at all as the author (Ruckus) is asking how to adjust
• Excessive gross weight no desrespect intended.
• In an earlier response the writer (AlanH) has suggested using another method of lowering. I've already expressed my personal opinion of the FNG and my disclaimer about not supporting it.

Anyway this is why solving this with preload doesn't add up in this particular case.  So . . .  what am I missing

• What i have tried to display and answer above is based on facts and my real world knowledge of working with springs.
• Hook's Law is all about springs just like Ohm's Law is about electricity < edited

Isn't the best and possibly only solution to raise the fender enough to provide adequate distance so there is enough spring compression distance available to advantage the higher resistances needed when riding 2-up?

• If the Pilot hasn't adjusted the Eibach spring this whole discussion is a mute point from where i'm sitting
• Secondly, the writer has requested confirmation of the method of lowering and still unanswered

• Have we all lost sight of the original question shown below by Ruckus

Ruckus:

Before I succumb to an adjustable lowering kit (I like it where it is) I know I can preload the spring and adjust the dampening of the shock. I'm willing to have a stiffer ride. I read the forums and the owners manual. I just want to know the steps to maybe stiffening the ride for 2 up, then back to cushy solo. Thanks. And let the links to past forums begin!

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Now a question for all the naysayers in the group 

• Why does nearly every motorcycle in the world have some type or form of adjustable spring compression on either the frt/rear or both

OK, I loosened the shock to 15 clicks, tried to tighten the spring nut. Loosened the lock nut, grunted, groaned, nothing. Put the bike on the lift, nothing. Lowered it again, had my 330 lb son sit on it, nothing. Nut didn't budge! I think I pulled my g-string though! LOL. Any help on preloading this thing? Thanks. George

Alan......you're a friggin' mathtician dude! Reading your answers are like masterbating with a cheese grater (mildy amusing but mostly painful). Your intellect is so far ahead of mine it's retarded. I just want to make the bike usable 2 up until I get a solution! LOL. FOR THE 20th TIME.....FLIP & GRIND!!!!

Arizona Warrior:

What am I missing  

• My BOLD bulleted responses follows to your EDITED post

Its also true therefore that when the spring is collapsed 1" its resistance to collapsing further is greater than when its fully extended, and this is what you are referring to.  This is what the preload feature does. 

•  Yes

If you compress the spring 3/32" and that's equal to the first 100# load, that's good.  But the next 900# is still going to compress the spring to 1" and that translates to X" movement of the fender down toward the tire.

• NO .... remember the spring is preloaded AND COMPRESSED to a Mechanical Force of 100#.
•  900# -100# = Effective mechanical Force of 800# and will compress the spring approx 0.800"
• 800# / 31.25 (31.25# per 1/32") = 25.6 x .03125 = 0.800" 
•   It's going to take 1000# Force to compress the spring 1.00" - 0.093" (preload) = 0.907" spring Travel

Ruckus:

OK, I loosened the shock to 15 clicks, tried to tighten the spring nut. Loosened the lock nut, grunted, groaned, nothing. Put the bike on the lift, nothing. Lowered it again, had my 330 lb son sit on it, nothing. Nut didn't budge! I think I pulled my g-string though! LOL. Any help on preloading this thing? Thanks. George

The dampening adjustment is not for preloading and should beset to the factory mid point. You'll use that adjustment to fine tune the suspension. 

The small toothed silver adj nut is for metering only! This will not loosen the jamb nut

The large silver colored jamb (lock) nut with spanner notches must be loosened with the tool provided in the Yami kit under seat.

The adj nut is gold colored and hidden by my DIY spring compression tool as can be seen in both expanded images

CLICK for Expanded Images

            

Good Luck

Ruckus-

When I adjusted my preload I had to use a 5lb mallet to get the adjusting nut to turn, that SOB was tight.  Not 100% certain (so please correct me if this is not the case) but I dont think that weighting the suspension will make it any easier since your essentially having to overcome the force of the spring by tightening the nut and therefore compressing the spring.  You've got the 1K spring right - so in turning that nut your having to compress 1000lbs.  Eat your spinach bro.

 Edit: Hmm just read Alans info again, and think I may have botched that....

If the spring force is constant at 1000lbs per inch and there are 3.24 inches of travel then it would take 3240lbs to fully compress the spring.  Since it's constant (and therefore linear) it would take much less that 1000lbs of force to turn the preload nut especially since each turn is only gives you 0.06" of adjustment on the spring (per the owners manual) so based on that one full turn would compress the spring the equivalent of loading it with 60lbs?  That still doesn't seem right because I stood on my spring and it didn't even budge. Alan????

In any case my was a PITA to adjust the pre-load on

Ruckus:

Alan......you're a friggin' mathtician dude! Reading your answers are like masterbating with a cheese grater (mildy amusing but mostly painful). Your intellect is so far ahead of mine it's retarded. I just want to make the bike usable 2 up until I get a solution! LOL. FOR THE 20th TIME.....FLIP & GRIND!!!!

The mathematical masturbation was for Arizona Warrior's benefit and not yours.

Did i not say earlier:

Have we all lost sight of the original question shown below by Ruckus

I TOLD YOU WAY BACK WHEN TO ADJUST THE SPRING

• The FNG might not be a problem at all for 2-up riding based on your body weights. You need to adjust the spring per the Owner's Manual before making any knee jerk decisions IMO

Why don't you post a jpeg photo of the spring adjustment nut or take note of the previous photos of my spring as that's how it went back on my bike for 1-up riding for thousands of miles until the 240 Tire

good luck

Screw it, Ruckus..just get a side cart....that should handle the bottoming out problem. See...I solved your problem and didnt even touch your suspension. Thats why I rule.

NorCalWarrior:

.......................................

 Edit: Hmm just read Alans info again, and think I may have botched that....

If the spring force is constant at 1000lbs per inch and there are 3.24 inches of travel then it would take 3240lbs to fully compress the spring.  Since it's constant (and therefore linear) it would take much less that 1000lbs of force to turn the preload nut especially since each turn is only gives you 0.06" of adjustment on the spring (per the owners manual) so based on that one full turn would compress the spring the equivalent of loading it with 60lbs?  That still doesn't seem right because I stood on my spring and it didn't even budge. Alan????

OK..... stated earlier above to AW

• It's not about the capacity of the spring at all, it's all about the additional weight req'd to start to collapse the spring of the Warrior suspension when the spring is adjusted to whatever

Don't loose sight of the fact that the spring is connected through various linkages that form a complex equation in mechanics and that's why it's not that large a spring. When you jump on your bike you're nut stepping on the spring ... The mechanical advantage is all tailored to the spring. A little goes a long way.

• Example: 3/16" stretched links = -1.00 Lower @ the rear wheel

If i inadvertently made a statement in this discussion that there is a direct relationship to riders weight and spring rate, then it's a keying error so pls point it out.

There's a spring force calculator at the bottom of this post in 1/32" increments: http://rswarrior.com/forums/p/123022/984566.aspx#984566

AlanH:

OK..... stated earlier above to AW

• It's not about the capacity of the spring at all, it's all about the additional weight req'd to start to collapse the spring of the Warrior suspension when the spring is adjusted to whatever

Don't loose sight of the fact that the spring is connected through various linkages that form a complex equation in mechanics and that's why it's not that large a spring. When jump on your bike you're nut stepping on the spring ... The mechanical advantage is all tailored to the spring. A little goes a long way.

• Example: 3/16" stretched links = -1.00 Lower @ the wheel

If i inadvertently made a statement in this discussion that there is a direct relationship to riders weight and spring rate, then it's a keying error so pls point it out.

There's a spring force calculator at the bottom of this post in 1/32" increments: http://rswarrior.com/forums/p/123022/984566.aspx#984566

 

warning shameless thread hijack......

Yes I agree standing on the spring is in no way simulating the mechanics of the suspension linkage

That being said, when you adjust the preload on the spring by turning the adjusting nut your are completely bypassing any mechanical interaction with the suspension of the bike turning the nut is working solely against the force of the spring - by using this formula ((N x 3240)/3.24) where equals the amount of compression in inches gained by turning the nut to adjust the spring you get the force required to compress right?  So to turn the nut enough to compress the spring 1/32" (0.03125 x 3240)/3.24 you get 31.25lbs of force yes?  If that holds true then it shouldn't be as hard to turn that adjusting nut as it has been in my experience

OK. Picture this...I was standing facing the rear of the bike in my garage. I had the foresight to remove the supplied spanner wrench from the bikes tool kit and had it firmly in my right hand. I carefully navigated around the bike to the right, the throttle side. I lowered my fat a$$ to the cold cement floor until I was laying on my right side. I peered under the bike. Sure enough, there it was. A big red springy thingy with what I assumed was the shock neatly snuggled in the middle of it. As I looked at it, I saw 3 round gear looking thingys. According to the manual, the furthest right gear thingy adjusts the shock rebound dampening. I grasped it and to my surprise I was able to turn it by hand. So, I turned it Clockwise until it stopped, then carefully back counterclockwise until I counted 15 clicks. Done. I then moved my attention to the center gear looking thingy. Book says it's a lock nut....hhmmmm.....spanner thingy fits on it. I seated the spanner firmly into a notch in the gear thingy and pushed. Nothing. Grabbed a wrench nearby....tap tap tap....loose. Done. Now I attached the spanner to the Biggest of all the gear looking thingys, the one closest to the spring. The manual has a nice picture of it, so, no assuming at all....it's the adjusting nut for spring preload. I won't bore you with the rest....I couldn't tighten, loosen, or take it to lunch no matter what I tried. Manual doesn't say how hard it should be, but, then again, I know have a 1000 lb spring. There. Now......DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT I NEED TO DO TO TURN THIS FRIGGIN' NUT? Thank you.

NorCalWarrior:

warning shameless thread hijack......

Yes I agree standing on the spring is in no way simulating the mechanics of the suspension linkage

That being said, when you adjust the preload on the spring by turning the adjusting nut your are completely bypassing any mechanical interaction with the suspension of the bike turning the nut is working solely against the force of the spring - by using this formula ((N x 3240)/3.24) where equals the amount of compression in inches gained by turning the nut to adjust the spring you get the force required to compress right?  So to turn the nut enough to compress the spring 1/32" (0.03125 x 3240)/3.24 you get 31.25lbs of force yes?  If that holds true then it shouldn't be as hard to turn that adjusting nut as it has been in my experience

My explanation and opinion follows:

• When adjusting the spanner nut to compress the spring you are at the same time trying to UNWIND the spring which is mfg'd CW
• A CCW spring would adjust easier or LH thd's
• The spring is flat ground and only makes partial contact to the spanner nut
• The spring is already under preload before mounting to the bike
• The weight of the bike still has an effect on  the spring

When i did my stretched links and Eibach spring back in '05' i carefully applied white lithium grease on the spring adj nut and thd's which made it quite easy to adjust in early '07' when i went to the 240 tire.